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Ep 3: Inclusive Design for a Digital World with Regine Gilbert

When we encounter or engage with any sort of product or service, we're using all of our senses. But if you take any of those senses away, what does that experience look like? In this episode, I sit down with Regine Gilbert, designer, educator, and author of Inclusive Design for a Digital World, to discuss steps to making a more inclusive and accessible design for all users. From visual, audio, motor to cognitive design, the discussion covers a variety of topics on accessibility and inclusion, and most importantly “where to start.”

Ep 3: Inclusive Design for a Digital World with Regine Gilbert

About

Regine Gilbert

Regine Gilbert is a user experience designer, educator, and international public speaker with over 10 years of experience working in the technology arena. She has a strong belief in making the world a more accessible place—one that starts and ends with the user.  She is currently a Visiting Industry Assistant Professor at New York University at the Tandon School of Engineering.

References

Full Text Transcript

Harrison Wheeler:

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Harrison Wheeler:

I'm Harrison Wheeler and you're listening to Technically Speaking. This is episode three. My guest on today's show is joining us from New York. She is a designer, educator, and author of Inclusive Design for a Digital World, Regine Gilbert. Our discussion covers a variety of topics on accessibility and inclusion. We cover the most burning question of them all. Where to start? Regine says, "At the end of the day, what we want as human beings are all the same. We want the best for ourselves. If we want the best for ourselves, then what does that mean? And how do we prepare for the future?"

Harrison Wheeler:

Thank you for joining, my name is Harrison Wheeler. I'm a design manager at LinkedIn. I've worked at two startups before now and you are on Technically Speaking and Technically Speaking is a show that I started up about six weeks ago to just touch on all topics around leveling up your user experience journey. For promotional purposes, you all can subscribe to my newsletter at harrisonwheeler.com. With that being said, I want Regine to introduce herself and give everyone a quick introduction about yourself and what you do.

Regine Gilbert:

Sure. Hi, everyone. My name's Regine Gilbert. I am in Brooklyn, New York, Bed–Stuy Brooklyn. Currently, my role is a visiting industry assistant professor at New York University at the Tandon School of Engineering in the integrated digital media program. I focus on teaching user experience and assistive technology courses. So, that's my main focus. Prior to this, I had been having my own consulting group called Gilbert Consulting Group, where I consulted with businesses, helping them mostly around accessibility, but also doing small projects for small businesses, small e-commerce sites. Also, working with bigger companies on innovation stuff in terms of things that they wanted to try out like creating websites for new products. So, it's funny because my experience in UX is only about six years, which isn't very long for some folks, but I've been working in technology for over 15.

Regine Gilbert:

So prior to UX design, I was a product manager, project manager, business analyst, IT trainer, fashion designer. I have an interesting past that I think we find, a lot of us find that one thing built on top of the other. So that's what I've found with my career. And I'm here with you-

Harrison Wheeler:

Yes.

Regine Gilbert:

... and all of you, which is very exciting.

Harrison Wheeler:

Hey. Yeah. So before we get on further, I just want to understand, you had a very colored past. What was that journey like just transferring into these different types of industries and... Were there any things that you could kind of take your learnings from, let's say from fashion to project management that have at least propelled your career in UX?

Regine Gilbert:

Yeah, for sure. I moved to New York 15 years ago to pursue fashion studies at Parsons. I went there for a year, I dropped out, ended up working as a fashion designer for two years before moving into the IT department where I became an IT trainer. A few years back around the time I first got into UX, I noticed a lot of parallels between fashion design and UX design and I wrote about it and then somebody else saw what I wrote and then they wrote something about it. And it kind of got a little popular, a little cool for a minute. But there's a lot of parallels in terms of thinking about a lot of times with design, you think of some sort of mood, in fashion design, you create a mood board, right?

Harrison Wheeler:

Introduction to accessibility is usually more of a mandate, right? There might be laws around it. I think if you're working in higher education, I did in the past, that was sort of a government requirement. So for you, just how did you get into it?

Regine Gilbert:

Well, I literally woke up one day and I was like, "I need to make the world a more accessible place." I didn't know what that meant. It just popped in my head and I said, "Well, what does that mean?" I Google accessibility, New York City and I find an accessibility meetup. And at this accessibility meetup, well, I ended up going to the accessibility meetup where I got to meet people with all different types of disabilities. I don't even remember the particular talk from that day, but I walked away from that with two friends. And those two folks are blind and the conversation and I think I have this in the beginning of my book. The conversation that I had with one of them was super interesting because I said, "I'm a UX designer." She said, "Well, what's a UX designer?" I said, "Oh, I make things usable. And she's blind and she asked me the question that has stuck with me since then.

Regine Gilbert:

She asked me, "Do people like you think about people like me?" And I sat there in silence because up to that point, even in my... I took a course in UX and I had taken online courses, no one really mentioned anything about it. And I said, "If I'm being honest with you, no, no, but I will make sure anything I work on will." And so since then it was just like this... It's like a mental promise that I made to her and to myself to make sure that I don't forget and I don't just think of myself when I'm designing something.

Harrison Wheeler:

That's super powerful. As you started going down this journey and you've obviously been able to make a lot of impact on the work that you've done. How much more work do you think the industry has on its plate to make the world more accessible?

Regine Gilbert:

Wow! A lot. I think a lot of work. I think that there's still a lot of people who don't know about accessibility. I think that from an education perspective, a lot of design schools don't teach it as a part of the curriculum, that's first and foremost. I think even in a lot of the online courses, it's not incorporated or weaved in. So I think starting there with the education of design and incorporating accessibility into it is really important. I was very lucky I applied and received a grant this past year from Teach Access, which awards money to educators who incorporate accessibility into their curriculum. So last semester my students all worked on accessibility projects, all of them. And it was eye-opening for them. Many of them had not had that focus before. So it was just super interesting. So it's a gift to be able to teach and to be able to incorporate this because some of my students go on to do really cool stuff.

Harrison Wheeler:

So we've been throwing out the word accessibility quite a bit, right? And so-

Regine Gilbert:

Yeah, we didn't define it.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yes. I want to level set with you and the audience here. What does accessibility mean?

Regine Gilbert:

Well, accessibility means a lot of different things in the context that I teach it, in the context that I write about and that I use it, is accessibility is making sure that whatever it is you are making is accessible to people with disabilities. Accessibility could also mean that you don't have a ton of images because somebody is in an area with low bandwidth. But in this particular sense, and what I've been referring to up to this point is accessibility for people with disabilities.

Harrison Wheeler:

Got it. So, what type of disabilities are we talking about? Right. I think a lot of times, we tend to just... Like at least from my experience, a lot of the things that we're kind of focusing on are for our folks that may be color blind or they have to access the keyboard. But we may not necessarily know what type of disabilities that they have, right? So I'd like to maybe dive into that a little bit more so we can at least get some clarity on what that means.

Regine Gilbert:

Well, there tends to be four areas of focus when it comes to disability that people look at. Visual is one, audio hearing, motor and cognitive. So within those, those four there's lots of disabilities that folks can have. I just recently did a talk for the information architecture conference, where I talked about the senses. When we encounter or engage with any sort of product or service, we're using all of our senses. But if you take any of those senses away, what does that experience like? So I kind of focus my talk around our senses and not only that, I talked about the sense of time, because I think time is the sense. I actually learned today, I think the word is [inaudible 00:10:03], something like that. Because I don't know about anybody here, but since we have been shelter-in-place or whatever you call it in your state. For me, time has really been just wiggity wack. Like I have no idea what time it is. I don't know how much time has passed. I haven't answered emails for days. I forget things. I lose all track of time.

Regine Gilbert:

And I think if we think of things in terms of senses and not so much accessibility, then it's a little easier to comprehend and understand if you take any of your senses away, can you still experience this in the same way?

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

And so, I like to think of things from a multisensory perspective, or I'm starting to look at things from a multisensory perspective as someone who is and I know I don't look it, but I am over 40 and my eyesight I'm like, "Does that font need to be bigger or is it me?" So, it's just really me paying attention to the world-

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

... really. I hope that answered your question.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah. And I think one thing that I'm taking away from that too, at least from the time perspective, we're all going to be going through some sort of... How would you say? Change in ability, whether it'll be around those five senses or not. And so even though right now, we might be able to read a 14 size font and we can do these amazing gestures, at some point in time, we're going to be fairly limited around that. And so, even if it's not just us, if things aren't working well for folks that may not be as constrained in those five senses, can you imagine what people are, who already are, right? And I think that's like one of those things that I'm taking away from it. And to be honest with you, I have a lot of work to do in this field. Right? And I think that's the case for a lot of folks. And so, another thing that kind of comes to mind when I think about design and in the words that come up around accessibility, there's also inclusive, right?

Regine Gilbert:

Yes. It's such a hot buzzword.

Harrison Wheeler:

It's a buzzword. Right?

Regine Gilbert:

Definitely.

Harrison Wheeler:

And I think what's interesting about that is this concept of like or [inaudible 00:12:22] assumption that since we're designers, we're inherently empathetic to our users. Right? Which I don't think is true. I think there's a lot of work that we need to constantly do to sort of push our assumptions and expand our knowledge, right? What does inclusive mean? And what are the ways that we can drive more empathy or at least get more of an idea of what it means to be inclusive in our products?

Regine Gilbert:

I have a lot of thoughts in regards to the word inclusive. No one can define it.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yep.

Regine Gilbert:

Not even me. I wrote a book it's called Inclusive Design for a Digital Age in part, because I had a publisher too, that needed to address... This is a hot word. I don't know if you've read Mismatch Design, or if anybody here has read Mismatch Design by Kat Holmes. But I like the way she approaches inclusiveness. And she really doesn't define it, because she said, "There's so many different ways that you could define it." And we can't define inclusion, but we can define exclusion, right? We can define what it means to be left out of something. Right? And so I like looking at it from that lens versus like, "Oh, well, let's define inclusion and let's be solid on this and as designers, we need to make things inclusive." We need to make sure we're not excluding anyone, period. And so, what does that mean? Does that mean that we need to look at things from socio-economic terms? We need to look at things in terms of disability. We need to look at things in terms of race. We need to look at who we are excluding from the start.

Regine Gilbert:

And one of the things that I really try to hit home, and this is a question that I ask, I'm going to ask you. That I ask of my students is, who do you think about the most?

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah. That's very interesting. I think like in the line of work that I'm doing, I'm doing a lot of enterprise work. And so we're generally focusing on-

Regine Gilbert:

But I'm not talking about work-

Harrison Wheeler:

Okay.

Regine Gilbert:

... I'm talking about you. Who do you think about the most?

Harrison Wheeler:

I'd probably say like my friends and family.

Regine Gilbert:

Yeah.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

I'll say you're probably wrong.

Harrison Wheeler:

Okay.

Regine Gilbert:

You probably think about yourself the most, which most of us do. There's nothing wrong with that. And even when we're thinking about our friends and family, we're thinking about them in context of ourselves.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

And because are constantly thinking about ourselves, empathy is hard. Empathy is hard in that we're not thinking about other people most of the time.

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

Right? So it makes it a challenge for us. And that's what makes UX, I think, fun and exciting and hard because we have to get out of our own head and actually think about... And actually engage with people who are not us. So, I think that it's an ongoing thing that, like you can't just... People think, "Oh, well, I took this UX course, or I do this job now as a UX designer. I'm this." You are not that, you have to practice it. You can't work out once in your life and be fit forever.

Harrison Wheeler:

[inaudible 00:15:43].

Regine Gilbert:

So yeah. Right? Like, "I worked out once this year, so I'm good."

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

No, you're not. You have to keep practicing. You have to keep your eyes open. You have to keep your eyes fresh to see what's going on in the world. And you have to see that you're not your user. And that your user could be anyone. And who are you excluding from the very beginning? And why aren't you including them in the process, right? I currently teach an assistive technology course for blind and low vision. And the students are learning about the assistive technologies. I know quite a bit about assistive tech, but I don't know everything. I get to co-teach it with someone who's actually blind. Right? So we work together. I bring in the UX side, he brings in the assistive technology side and together we help these students learn about assistive tech. And so I think really having, bringing in folks, bringing in people with disabilities, bringing in people from different socio-economic backgrounds to help in that process and make them part of the design process is beyond helpful.

Harrison Wheeler:

It seems like a transformational sort of process, right? You don't just step in and say, "I want to learn about accessibility." And for lack of a better example, you can't read a book and just be an expert in it. So, just kind of in summation, where do we start? Like what are some simple things that we can do to [crosstalk 00:17:18]?

Regine Gilbert:

Get my book. You can get my book, honestly. Well, I did write the book for people who were new to accessibility-

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

... who don't really know much about it and want to know. I also have a Skillshare on inclusive UX that I would recommend. But I would say just where is your area of interests? Right? The disability world is quite big and vast. Accessibility is quite big and vast. You could start with the W3C, the web. They have the web content, accessibility guidelines. But reading that is not maybe the best because it's super long. If you want to read it before bedtime, it probably is a good thing for you.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

But I would say to get started is just to find areas of interest to you and pursue it from there. There's plenty. I think they're on LinkedIn. What is it called? LinkedIn learning now?

Harrison Wheeler:

Learning. Yes.

Regine Gilbert:

It used to be Lynda?

Harrison Wheeler:

Yep.

Regine Gilbert:

LinkedIn learning, Derek Featherstone has a really good course on design in accessibility that I'd highly recommend. I took that course when it was back on Lynda years ago. And it's still relevant what he talks about today. So, there's plenty of courses out there to take a look at.

Harrison Wheeler:

Right. Now, I'm going to go to the book. What motivated you to write this book on Inclusive Design for a Digital World?

Regine Gilbert:

I was asked. So, really I did a talk and this is also in the book. I talk about a talk that I did at a conference where I wasn't feeling my most confident. I'll just say that. And I did not do the most accessible talk that I could have. And I felt really bad about it because my whole thing is making sure that I'm not leaving anybody out of an experience. So, I got approached about writing the book and then once I got approached... In the disability community, one of the big things is nothing about us without us. And so I knew when I wrote the book that I couldn't write it without having somebody with me who has a disability. So, my friend, Sara Allen is deaf and I asked her... She's also developer and I asked her if she would be my technical reviewer for any technical stuff that I had in the book. And she agreed. And so I felt good about that.

Regine Gilbert:

I had people who work in the disability community review the book and one of my friends was like, "You took an all lives matter approach. You need to stop. You need to make it clear that if something is difficult for people..." Because I have a chapter called, If It's Annoying, It's Probably not Accessible. So she said, "You have to make it clear, something's really annoying for somebody who is able bodied, it's almost impossible for somebody with disability. So just be really, really clear in your language." And so I tried to do my best not to disappoint her and so I got a lot of feedback when doing it.

Regine Gilbert:

So my hope was that this would be good for people who are brand, brand new. This isn't for people who know about accessibility, this book will not help you. This book is for people who are brand new to accessibility and really don't know even where to start.

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

Because I didn't know where to start and I wish I would have had something like this. There's another really good book. That's not coming to me, but if I could give it to you later.

Harrison Wheeler:

Okay.

Regine Gilbert:

Yeah.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah-

Regine Gilbert:

But I put a bunch of references in the back of the book for people to take a look at.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah. This has been thematically. Accessibility has been a really big part, the conversation. We actually had Kat Holmes come to LinkedIn this week to kind of talk on these things. So-

Regine Gilbert:

She is amazing.

Harrison Wheeler:

... yeah. I know, definitely.

Regine Gilbert:

[crosstalk 00:21:25] respect for her. And she's just a lovely, lovely human being.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah. And she's done a lot of work with Microsoft on designing for accessibility. So-

Regine Gilbert:

Yeah.

Harrison Wheeler:

... that's a really great resource. I actually think they just updated it, I think maybe like a month or two ago. So go ahead and check that out. In regards to your book, give me some high level... Give the folks like a high level of theme of areas that you cover.

Regine Gilbert:

Well, I cover what accessibility is, high level web content, accessibility guidelines, some high level HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ARIA things. I talk about planning, planning for accessibility, recruiting, what type of frameworks you might have when you're approaching these type of problems? Including one that I co-created with my friend, James, which is empathy, vision, values, communication, and context. Because I think that we always need to look at the context of a situation. We can't just put a blanket on top of it.

Regine Gilbert:

I talk about past innovations and what the opportunities are for the future. I referenced the group, XR Access, which is a group that I am part of. I'm co-deputy for the education. XR stands for Extended Reality, so that covers any sort of virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality, and addressing basically right now, their web content accessibility guidelines exist for desktop, for mobile, but there aren't any standards really related to XR, to mixed realities. What does that mean? Especially, I like to throw out this statistic that in the year 2035, we'll have more people over the age of 65 than under the age of 65 in the United States. So, what does that mean for us? And I really think it's important for us to design for our future selves. I've done workshops on that. So I really think we need to start now making things for ourselves as we get older, not wait until we get older and say, "Oh, oops."

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

And think about that, right?

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah. Yeah. And another thing too, just kind of with the subject matter is that you're touching on it in your book. Accessibility is really sort of a full funnel thing. It's not just when it gets to design, right? As you mentioned before, it's with recruiting, getting people in your organization, obviously the design work, but then also the output from an engineering perspective, right? Even themes in terms of JavaScript, I would not have even thought about how that affects it? So I think it's actually an organizational shift that all you guys are really going to hopefully be able to influence within your organization. How do you start influencing in an organization that's not doing it?

Regine Gilbert:

Well, if you don't have buy-in from the top, it makes it really hard. So if you can get any sort of conversation going with the higher-ups, I think it's super helpful because when you're just doing the groundwork and you're not supported, it's really difficult-

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

... so I say try to get the help from the top when you can. If you can't, plant seeds. I'm a big, big fan of planting seeds. I'm a big fan of asking questions. Just today, somebody reached out to me asking me, "I'm working on this thing..." They're not a designer, but they do other work. And they said, "They passed off this design, but I'm not sure because there's a vertical scroll and horizontal scroll and I don't think it's accessible." And I said, "Well, why don't you ask them if I'm only using a keyboard, how would I access this?" I said, "You don't have to throw out the word accessibility whatsoever. Just say, 'There's some people like me. I only like to use my keyboard. I like to use shortcuts, if I were using my keyboard, how would I access this vertical and horizontal scroll?'"

Regine Gilbert:

So, I think by asking questions, but that also takes having an understanding of what accessibility is for yourself. For me, it's an ongoing learning process. Like I've not stopped learning. I have so much. Actually on Monday, I think Adobe is having an accessibility in animation, like a half an hour-

Harrison Wheeler:

Wow!

Regine Gilbert:

... online workshop, right? So I was like, "I'm taking that because I don't really... I want to learn what are they doing?" Adobe is doing a lot around accessibility. So, yeah.

Harrison Wheeler:

Awesome. How would you say this topic has transformed since you've gotten involved in it?

Regine Gilbert:

It's definitely become more popular, thankfully since-

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

... I first started, because initially when I got into it, people didn't really focus on it. I was lucky enough to work in organizations where I got to put together guidelines. I got to work with it. But over the years I've seen an increase in popularity. More people are taking my inclusive UX course on Skillshare which has been cool. And yeah, I wrote about it for a few years with nobody really looking on Medium. By the way, I'm taking all my stuff off of Medium pretty soon and putting it on my website. So, yeah.

Harrison Wheeler:

What's the motivation behind that?

Regine Gilbert:

Because I want to own my stuff.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yes. Yes. Yes. So, just to kind of switch. How are you holding up with all of the shelter-in-place, COVID-19?

Regine Gilbert:

Well, my partner and I got it, we got COVID back in March and we were lucky in that we had a mild case of it. My partner is an essential worker and does delivery and many people at his job got it. Few people have died sadly. We were lucky that our symptoms were mild. He had fever. I never got one. I had a really bad headache. We didn't officially get tested because my doctor said, "Good luck getting a test." Basically there's not in New York is really hard. But for me, my doctor's like, "You have it. Just stay home." We both lost our sense of smell, which for me, I love smelling everything. And it was the oddest thing to not have the sense of smell in it. That's kind of what prompted me to do my talk about the senses and thinking about, if you don't have the sense, how do you experience the world?

Regine Gilbert:

I actually have a friend who doesn't have any sense of smell whatsoever. So it's just a different. There's different ways of looking at things. And I think for me, having been sick, it really has shaped a different perspective on like, let me re-evaluate and reprioritize things in my life. And what's really important is taking care of my family, taking care of myself and being grateful for what I have really is kind of what I walked away with it because it was really a horrible experience. I was down. I still kind of went to meetings. I still taught, but I was really out of it. And that's why I talk about the sense of time and really not knowing, because I feel like the month of March for me is a blur.

Harrison Wheeler:

Has that changed sort of how you even think about accessible design and you've been doing a lot of talks in the past. Has that changed your approach on the subject matter when you're talking about it?

Regine Gilbert:

Well, I think one of the things that's been exposed with this pandemic and people being able to work from home is that you can open the doors for people with disabilities to work. There's no excuse now for people not to work from home. Right? Let people work from home if they need to work from home.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

I know there are certain jobs you can't do that but a lot of the companies who were saying, "Oh, we can't" You can and you have, and you've done it now. So this means, hopefully this will open up some doors, but this situation has also opened up a lot of systematic oppression issues around just, again, the socio-economic, disability, a lot of those areas are really showing their true colors. So that would be for another day that I-

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

... I'm trying to write on this whole... I'm going to call it, connecting the dots, but I don't know exactly how, but there's so many systems in place that are not benefiting the people that they should be and that they're benefiting others. And just a lot of unfairness in the world.

Harrison Wheeler:

Would you say that those [inaudible 00:30:36] are parallel across the board? Right? I know we've talking about accessibilities from a disability perspective or an ability perspective, but it seems like a lot of those same things would carry on into social economic differences as well.

Regine Gilbert:

Oh, yeah.

Harrison Wheeler:

Why do you think we haven't crossed that path where these things are intersecting in a conversation?

Regine Gilbert:

There's lots of reasons, it's not one, I think it's a very layered issue when you start to really dig and get into it, but we have to own up to our responsibility and everybody's responsibility. I read Malcolm Gladwell's Talking with Strangers and he talks about that we're all complicit in what's going on in the world. And so those times you say no to things or those times that you say yes to things that you know you maybe you shouldn't, or you go along with something and for the sake of keeping your job. There are certain things that we have to do in order to survive, right?

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

But when we as a collective are complicit in what's going on in the world, if we really want things to be better, things can get better.

Harrison Wheeler:

Right.

Regine Gilbert:

It's do we want it? Can we own up to the fact that we haven't been as good as we say we've been, admit to our mistakes, learn from them and then move forward? It's a challenge for everybody.

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear more of your thoughts on that and I think the topic of accessibility, folks getting into it, I think it's actually a great start to head down that pathway if you will. And I think too, there's opportunity in many different areas, right? I think we think of like... One of the things that comes to mind is service design. Another piece would probably be around public policy. What are your thoughts on public policy in the role that that can play in accessibility?

Regine Gilbert:

Well, there are a lot of people who work within that realm. That's not-

Harrison Wheeler:

Yeah.

Regine Gilbert:

... really my area-

Harrison Wheeler:

Okay.

Regine Gilbert:

... so I can't speak on it. But there are a lot of activists who are working very diligently and hard to make sure that the disability community's voices are heard. So yeah, not my area of expertise so I will stay in my lane.

Harrison Wheeler:

All right. Well, thank you. Well, that wraps it up. Thank you so much, Regine. This was a really eye-opening conversation.

Regine Gilbert:

Thank you everyone.

Harrison Wheeler:

Hey, enjoy this episode? Be sure to hit the subscribe button on whatever service you use to listen to podcasts. I want you to get that notification as soon as a new episode drops. I'm on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, you name it. I'm there. You can also subscribe to my newsletter at harrisonwheeler.com for the latest industry insights, new article postings, and announcements of future guests on the show. Once again, thanks for being a listener to Technically Speaking. I'm your host, Harrison Wheeler and I'm out. Stay safe and stay healthy.

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